saip s&p 500 is up 2/3 percent. utilities up. utility average up better than a full percent on the trading session and transport is up about a quarter of a percent or so. so ty, so far so good. at least for this monday. they are hopeful. >> there is a little bit of an upward drift today and directly traceable to what is going on in washington and people getting their portfolios squared away for the end of the year. >> that will do it for this hour of "power lunch." thank you so much for joining us. >> have a great afternoon, everyone. tyler and i will see you tomorrow. "street signs" begins right now. the market is taking a back seat to the event of newtown but business questions we main loud and long. we ask if more can be done with guns and treatment to prevent

this from ever happening again. are we any closer to a deal? why john boehner's plan may go nowhere. plus the first of our fierce competitor specials pitting two big retailers against each other in a battle for your holiday dollars. and 109 years ago today, wilbur and orville wright took flight and we see how big their dream has become. >> trading higher at the last full day -- excuse me, trading week of the year. grinding quietly higher and fairly light trade. here are your interesting fact. seven up days, five down days for both the dow and s&p, the last 12 mondays before the december triple witching. as for the nasdaq, a look at apple. broke below 500 bucks this morn ppg more of that on street talk. but do watch for any close below $500 a share.

let's get straight down to the floor of the stock exchange and find out, what is leading this bounce today? what caused it? >> i've had one theme today and it is a simple one. no deal is now off the table. there were fears nothing would happen. we know some kind of deal will occur and we can see it converging. be careful here, mandy. remember, since november 15th, we are up about 5% on the s&p 500. nice rally for a couple of weeks, almost the month. i think the important thing here is a small but growing segment who are arguing selling to the fiscal cliff deal, at least in the first part of 2013, there are concerns about the greater austerity around that fiscal cliff. meantime, sectors doing well. bank stocks moving side ways since their earnings are doing great. we have new highs on american citigroup. tech stocks and energy stocks all to the upside right now. i just want to show you what the treasury etfs are doing. i get a lot of inquiries about this. they are down again. that means yields are going up.

not dramatically. but i want to show you while the bond bubble is not bursting, there is definitely air coming out of that. most big bond etfs are down 0.5 to 3%. that is where somewhat of the notable declieps are. finally, selling the asian unit, now completely out. price terms were announced it was in line with what everybody was expecting but aig having a terrific day. mandy? >> indeed, it is, bob. >> if you are watching cnbc, we assume you are interested in the markets, so well do what we do. let's bring in gina sanchez, and steve white. a great note this morning, titled, what happens if and when the fiscal uncertainty lift. generally it is ladies first. but i want to start with steven

for a reason. steven, do you believe we can take out the "if a deal get done ". do you believe it is now a matter of when a deal get done. >> it seemed like we would have a deal eventually even if we went into the first quarter of the year. we will have to raise the debt ceiling. the question was would what kind of terror the economy need to live through. what sort of drag was on the economy before there was a deal. the news report suggest that a deal was onity way. >> you know, gina, you've got your portfolio, position for a dark moment before the light. what assumptions are you making with regards to the fiscal cliff? >> we do generally assume a deal will get made but we think there will be squabbling. i would agree there seems to be a belief in markets and a deal looks more likely. but neither side is giving on theirer to tennants.

so we think that we are going to need -- though boehner coming toward and saying, we will tax overa million dollar earners, that is movement. so that has to be considered positive. but we think probably it is not obvious until it happens. >> so gina, what is next for us, right? fiscal cliff, let's assume we get a deal done. something's got to give. so when you look out to 2013, then, what do you see that either encourages you or concerns you? >> well, once we get past the fiscal cliff. we think then you are dealing with the continued anemic recovery we have been talking about for so long. our estimate of fair value for 2013 is about 1410. it is a little lower than today. we think it'll be a year of two-haves. the first year will be more skub

exuberant. >> the cliff is an event that will eventually be out of the way. and then what? to what extent do we see business sentiment impacted and how strong will they be in 2013? >> that's important. post credit adjustments don't last forever. we have seen about a trillion dollar decline in consumer debt outstanding. since the beginning of 2008. much larger declines, if you look at debt service burdens. corporate sector has really well positioned. and we had an epic housing downturn. easily the worst since the 1930s. these low levels of recovery don't suggest catching up. since 2011 we have had unusual restraint. if we had a lousy fiscal deal, you can get a bounce of business capacity investment.

if you have a good fiscal deal now or later, you might invigorate the recovery. it is important not to stay at 2% forever. >> steven talks about the leveraging, which is the paradox of thrift. a good thing for us to save but unfortunately saving means we are not doing other perhaps more gdp enhanenhancing things with money. what is the more appropriate level of where we should be? >> we have lever leveraged. we are deleveraging in the household sector. that is what we are talking about doing. we think that probably you say longer than normal. there are two point where you see this recovery from major credit downturn. and that the great depression. before that in 1800's. we don't have a lot of experience necessarily and kind of projecting how long this will last but we know it'll last a long time.

so 2% going out for the better part of the next decade isn't such a crazy assumption. >> for the in next year, gina, s&p 1410, lower than now, kind of depressing, right? >> right. >> what will prove you wrong. what is the wild card, if you like? >> well, if you do for example get something that start to spur business investment, that creates some kind of knock on effects that are positive, i totally agree that we could actually see a better result. our upside case is about 1575. so we do have a bull case, right and the down side is closer to 1150. >> understand. thank you very much, gina. thank you, steve, as well. >> on deck, the first of many victims in the connecticut shooting are laid it rest today.

tragedy sparking a national debate not only over gun control but we head to washington to see what is said on both sides.

the shooting friday at sandy hook elementary school in newtown, account that killed 20 children and six adult, had an economic impact of 31 billion, which is 66% from 2008.

we are covering from story from various angles. we will look at the national debate on gun control and mental healthcare. first, funeral services were held for two of the 20 young victims today. nbc's danielle lee is live in newtown with more. danielle? >> good afternoon. today is the first in a long hard week ahead as families begin saying good-bye to loved ones and burying those victims who did not survive last woke's tragedy. first two funerals were held today. the first for 6-year-old noah posner, whose twin sitter survived in another room. and jack pinto. there is a lot of evidence both from the school and shooter's home and now they are beginning the long process of going through that evidence. they say they hope it will point to a motive. teachers today are meeting to

discuss how best to hand they'll tragedy, moving forward as student begin to return to classrooms. student who attended sandy hook are indefinitely excused. president obama met with families yesterday and vowed to do what it took to stop this from ever happening again. hampton pearson has more. hampton? >> the president in the coming weeks will engage for new solutions. >> to engage broadly, law officials and mental health officials and educators. because this complex problem requires many solutions, not just one. >> now downtown washington, there were demonstrators demanding tougher gun control laws marching on the offices of

the national rifle association. the powerful pro gun lobbying association. meanwhile, the sandy hook praj dihas leading lawmakers and long time gun advocates have a short list of policy changes, restoring the assault weapons bien. dianne feinstein saying she will introduce the legislation when the congress returns. >> we can protect the second amendment rights we can and will protect it but we can also look at ways we can make our country and our children more safe. i really believe we can sit down and have that dialogue and hopefully movement on that. >> now meanwhile, sense friday, on the white house, we the people petition, website, there

were nearly 149,000 signatures calling for tougher gun control measures. mandy? >> of course this will continue. thank you very much for that. another hot topic in the wake of this tragedy is mental healthcare spending. joining us from salt lake city is brenda reece brennan, director at intermountain healthcare. thank you so much for joining us today, brenda. what is the first thing we now need to do in the wake of this? >> well, i think i was just listening to you talk about tougher gun controls. and i think that i would focus on tougher social health controls. i think it is not just guns, not just mental health, it is the social integration of our entire communities. and families being able to have access to appropriate healthcare which includes mental health as a normal part of that and not something that separate. >> how do you think treating the mentally ill can prevent

tragedies like this? we don't want to say oh, he has you a t you autism or something else. >> i think we have destigmatized mental health and that's why it is so hard to get the families care when they need it. if mental health were more of a routine part of healthcare in terms of treatment and management and if families had access to managing stress and their everyday issues that come up that can predict or lead to certain mental health conditions, then we would be able to prevent more situations like this from happening. >> brenda -- >> and this is a time -- i go ahead. >> i was going to say, i'm a graduate of v tech. we all know what happened in 2007. the i go who did the killing,

and i'm not even going to mention his name and give him air time, he was in and out of meeting with psychiatrists and doctors. he still got out and did what he did. what is the appropriate level of detection and notification. there are personal liberties. you can't just lock somebody up in a hospital wp where's the balance? >> okay, the balance is this. you mentioned he was in and out of hospitals and doctors. that is the problem. every goes in and out. it is not connected, not integrated, not coordinateed. there for people never get to be attached it a team or a group of multidisciplinary individuals that are working together to prevent and also deal with the issues that are at hand. and you're right, you can't just go lock up every individual that has something like this happen. that not the answer. the answer is, to find koord

nated integrated care so that when people are in trouble, they have someone to call. and the family is not alone with it. the doctor is not alone with it. which is what happens in primarily care. our doctors feel many times that if they are stuck dealing with health issues because there is not enough care out there. there is care out there, it is just not coordinated or funded adequately enough so we can have appropriate access so that care. >> real quick, how much would it cost state to provide better care? a lot of state are on a very tight budgetary issue right now. >> nationally it won't cost us as much as it costs what just happened and what keeps happening and you can't put a dollar figure on all those families and first graders that won't see christmas. and you can't put a dollar figure on the family struggling and had the mental health or social issues that led to this or the community that has to

lock down their doors to be able to just good to elementary school. so that the cost we need to think about it. what is it costing us to not integrate mental health into health care and have it be something that feelets more coordinated, more connect sewed people aren't so isolated out there and having random act happen to them. >> thank you so much for sharing that with us, brenda. >> thank you. >> up next, dell or no deal? big step forward in the fiscal cliff talks. >> and we are kicking off a week-long series. battle of the big box stores. who will win this holiday season? we've got three analysts and three picks, next. [ male announcer ] this december, remember --

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toward a deal. you had president and house speaker john boehner meeting today at the white house. it does look like, eamon, and who knows if the gop rank and file will get behind them, but it looks like we are getting somewhere. >> it does, brian. here is what we know about the meeting between the speaker and president. it lasted about 45 minutes, we're told. we're also told that tim geithner was among participant, which is an indication to me at least, they are talking in detail beyond vague generality here. looks like the horse trading is going on. we saw the speaker returning to capitol hill earlier today. he is tight-lipped as he always is when he get back from the hill with these meetings. we also saw press secretary jay carney talking a little bit about this and suggesting there has to be movement from all sides. take a listen to carnie. >> any potential agreement would

not only have to align with the president's principles, it would require tough choices by both sides, including the president and including republicans. >> when he says, and including republicans, that gets to the issue you're talking about brian. does the speaker have the clout about his own members to get them to buy into a deal that would go up to $1 trillion now is his proposal on new tax revenue. including raising rate on folks who make more than a million dollars a year. which is something republicans said they didn't want to do. the key to that is what concessions are from white house in terms of spending and entitlement. presumably at some point we will learn about those but we are trying to find out what was said to find out if many have been offered already, brian. >> oh, to be a fly on will wall, eamon. >> right. >> time for myth busting.

speaker bain ear's plan would tax those making a million or more. lelt's bring in -- there's a big difference, right, between boehner's rich and obama's rich, right? >> all on the definition of what it takes to be rich. there are just two def sigss that matter this week. the first is the obama rich. we know these are folks that make more than $250,000 or more a year. there are about 2.8 million of the obama rich that account for about 2% of all tax filers. boehner rich, they are more of an elet club. those are folks maybing more than $1 million a year. there are about 368,000 of them. about .2 of the top filers. they are such a small group. raising their taxes, 3.6% on the obama rich is around 44 billion next year. raising taxes on boehner rich, that gives us about half that amount, about 20 billion. now aside from the smaller

numbers of course, the boehner rich get income from capitol gains. raising their income tax rate has less of an impact. $20 billion is still a lot of money and boehner's offer is a good starting point. they a agreed to midpoint at 500 thousand, that could be good. but in government terms that is bet are for politics than for economics. >> and our viewers, smart punch. if they watched last week, they know we threw out this number. >> right. >> 3.million. that's the number of households filing income taxes. 3.2 million, that the number of households that also reported income below 500. so 83% of the rich are the working wealthy. they make between 200 and 500. >> that's in terms of population. now the income chart are really askewed when you get to the hospital. that top group on the average

income for the 1 million plus group is 3.6 million. so the big chunk of income is really at the very top. >> but it is a tiny group of people. >> so no matter what their income. >> meat is between 200 and 500. you're not getting a lot from each family but there is 3.2 million. 83% of the rich are in that group. doctors, accountant, student loans. >> working profess yals. >> yeah. people say this is symbolism or you start at the top andity's got to workity way down. >> schumer and pelosi representing wealthy district, their people are saying, i'm sorry, you live in new york city, and this will tick a lot of people off. 400 grand as fa family is not rich. send nsty e-mailses to mandy. >> i will field them. . we are talking coffee and new concern for apple.

>> and "street signs," when wilbur and orville wright took flight, we were in the audience. just how many people visit our "street signs." just makes you go hhmmm. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.

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okay, street talk time. first, stock travellers getting an upgrade today. >> it says improve had margins are the driver led by two things. stable loss cross trend. well lose also money on property, casualty, whatever. and higher prices should stick. rbc says that's a good sign for the stock. >> and give a shout out to our friend, bob. what is he doing with this? usg. >> another rbc call. bob wp good for this show. raising usg to 35 bucks and putting this in his firm's top pick groups. sees 10% jump in board sales. home improvement trends tend to

get bet are. they will make more money on each wall board. >> i cannot get through each day without at least six cups of coffee, which is good for a company like there, caribou. >> i have to say it is my favorite coffee. but they are gone now. because privately held german company is buying caribou. interestingly enough, they coupled and bought peet's coffee. they are becoming a german starbucks competitor. if you own caribou off toy stib this morning, congratulations. cutting price target to 675 to

575, this is despite report that apple sold more than 2 million iphone 5s in three days in china. remember all of the lines, everybody freaked out. didn't matter. they had lottery ticket. still sold iphones in china eye poen is 51% of apple's total revenue. you cannot understate or overstate the importance of that. >> the best first week of sales ever. >> if you weren't seeing the hobbit, you were buying an iphone. or beth. a both /* both. you were tweeting about the hobbit on your new iphone. >> john the day john forte has been salivating about for hours. the end of january, here in new york city. stock, look at the recent run, by the way. up more than 50% in about 30 trading days. led us to ask the question, is everything fine?

>> that's a u shaped recovery. look that. a perfect u. >> it spp what do you say, john? is research in motion back, baby? >> no, not yet. >> i tried. >> i know. it doesn't take much to make me salivate today because all i've had to eat is a protein bar. blackberry 10 is exciting. but we still don't know exactly what is coming there yet. couple things. for the quarter report willing tomorrow, revenues are about half. if they meet expectations, or if they meet a little, they are expecting an eps loss of 35%. second of all, expectations for next quarter are bet are than that and we still don't have blackberry 10 yet. you have to be a little bit bullish to understand there is more product for something already a bit outdated and still do a little better on margins pf given that people will

anticipate blackberry 10. >> and i know you have a theory out there. i won't steal your thunder though. i will get to that in a second. i want it bring in willpower right now, fantastic name, is rim back? is this a u shaped recovery? is it a w or something worse? >> good afternoon. thanks for having me. i don't think rim is back. and we are looking for 7 million shipment this quarter, which i think will report on thursday. that half than what they did a year ago. i still think they have a deep hole to dig themselves out of etch year. >> that's the thing. i don't think cisco will buy the whole company. getting no consumer devices. but one of the key features of blackberry 10 is a virtual realization where you keep enterprise environment separate from personal. you have your apps that are enterprise. you have apps that are personal.

if you lose your job, wipe the apps off. >> we have been talking about it for six years now. is it just too late, too far gone? >> i think folks will google mote roll why. it is possible. i don't think they had as much as they did once. i don't think i with buy the stock at this point. about you it is possible. >> anything is possible, right, in the marketplace. thank you, john. by the way, i just want it add, everyone loved apple at 700. now they hate them at 500. excuse me french, but it is ass-backwards. >> and by the way, mandy, if you want to be a true american, you say bass-ackwards. >> i can't say it. >> local yocal.

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i'm bill griffin. we will learn the best plays for next year and what worked for him this year. shares of apple have been falling the past three months but good news from china on iphone 5. we will look at chart on that. and dick is leading his firm, rock dale securities today. we will have the exit interview. he will ask why he is leaving and what he feels is ahead for the financiales. the most important hour of the trading day, maria and i will see you then. >> thank you very much. check out airline stocks. and the next market etx, huge call-out. a lot of upgrades in this call this morning. that firm upgrading dealt why, us airways and united from a hold and aleejant travel and jetblue from a hold and alaska

from 53 to 45 and said they are poised to benefit from higher traffic, ie, more people on planes, and higher baggage fees and things for you. thanks that make you go hhmmmm. good music. last year, 638 million people traveled by airline. wow. that means that throughout this one very fine hour of "street signs," 72,800 people on average will take to the skies. that like 5,000 normal size air pliens or two airbus 380s. it is a lot. oroville and wilbur, what happened? big mind blowing stats aside, what is going on? do you agree with bill rosen's call? >> yeah. it is a good time for us.

we have been managing a little differently. capacity is not outstripping demand. and this last week we had investor days with southwest as well as with delta. both guys started talking about when each will get better an demand in january, relative to december looking stronger than you would normally expect. go ahead. >> i've been doing this 16 years. this seems like the first time where the airlines figured out how to actually make money. >> so far so good. oil can always screw it up. there's been a little bit after lid on capacity. looks like it had some consolidation. looks like we might get more consolidation and all of that brings it together. and maybe finally we are getting it right. >> very quickly, you hear

rumblings all the time, southwest institute baggage fees next year. . >> i think they are dancing around a lot of other fees. i wouldn't bet on it. but i think a lot of people saw the announcement, they are doing other things around the edges. at this point, i wouldn't bet on it. >> 10 bucks for a sandwich. >> thank you. >> good to be here. >> the job creator in this country anxiously await a fiscal cliff deal out of washington. how is the stalemate affecting business that level? let's ask joe dutra. great to have you on our show once again. are people buying less candy as a result of the uncertainty? >> mandy, merry christmas from reno, nevada. you know, you guys have been great for our business. there's a lot of uncertainty and stress and depression in the market. and that is just great for the chocolate business. >> is this like the lipstick

indicator? like you might cut back on big things like a new frige or new home but make yourself feel better with a little lipstick or bag of candy? >> that's right. we are kind of a cheap or inexpensive treat for most children and adult in the united states. and we've seen our business this year and our sales have grown by 25 to 30%. i think a lot of it has to do with, you know, we are an inexpensive treat and we're tied in with holidays and with this fiscal cliff, i think people are eating more comfort foot and i think chocolate is one of those products that speaks really well in this kind of a market. >> indeed. and the holiday season as well. here is to candy. thank you very much for that check. joe. up next, let's get ready no rumble. two big box stores will be battling it out this holiday season.

already battling it out. >> i was worried you and i would fight again. >> we can do that as well. our analyst are checking their lists twice. bringing their kicks, next. t. they don't know it yet, but they're gonna fall in love, get married, have a couple of kids, [ children laughing ] move to the country, and live a long, happy life together where they almost never fight about money. [ dog barks ] because right after they get married, they'll find some retirement people who are paid on salary, not commission. they'll get straightforward guidance and be able to focus on other things, like each other, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. it's just common sense. to the best vacation sp(all) the gulf! it doesn't matter which of our great states folks visit. mississippi, alabama, louisiana or florida, they're gonna love it. shaul, your alabama hospitality is incredible. thanks, karen. love your mississippi outdoors. i vote for your florida beaches, dawn. bill, this louisiana seafood is delicious.

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welcome back it "street signs." we all know this is the most critical time year for retail. and this week is the final round for numbers for fierce competitors. the next seven days could potentially be the most critical of this year's extra long season, right, a lot of time between thanksgiving and christmas with some retailers wracking up 40% of their total sales over the next few days. wow, a very important time for retailers. >> that is a wow. joining us today to size up said k competition we have ceo of any offen worldwide and former department store executive and president of sw retail advisers and cnbc contributor. first our very own courtney reagan will set up today's fierce competitors. court? >> thanks, mandy. we will roll a little package.

we have wal-mart, target, and both have positives going into the fight, so who's going to win? the fight of the retail giants. in the ring, big boxes wal-mart takes on target. sizing up the competition. wal-mart has 4,000 stores in the u.s. while target has just over 1700. we're putting everyday low prices against cheap chic and going into this season, wal-mart sales are up 1.5% year over year while target is nearly double that. assessment for same-store sales this holiday quarter put wal-mart up 8% and target up 2.3%. not so fast, target. last year wal-mart delivered a holiday bunch up 10.. % while target remained unchanged. >> the battle of the big boxers,

wal-mart and target. wal-ma now each competitor herb has ammunition. we will go to you first before the people who are paid to give us opiniones. who do you like in this fight? >> i think it is interesting. they are apples an oranges. so much different business models. both are very well run companies. it would be hard to, i give wal-mart the went to social med huge way. i think that helped them out in the post period. >> now, brian. you're with the experts. i want to hear what they think. >> i want herb to commit to a pick. >> he's not. >> i can see the benefits of both companies. >> they're both well-run companies. >> pick one. >> target. >> thank you. >> that was a gun to hit pick.

hopely it won't be so hard to get the picks out of our experts. it is ladies first here on "street signs." which pick is yours? >> i agree with herb so i won't get in trouble. but i would pick target. exactly the niemann marcus collaboration has been terrific for december. they did have a tough november so expectations are very low. and on top of that they're going into canada next year. and that's not in most analysts' numbers. and the stock is only 11.5 times. >> there you go, stacy. check in the box for target. bert, what say you? target or walmart this holiday season? >> target. ttg. for this decade. costco's walmart's worst nightmare. worldwide target is going to be walmart's worst nightmare in canada and the u.s. target's priced the same as

walmart. better fashion and food and pharmacy. but the one to really be bet on for walmart is look at mandy. wolworth in australia and new zealand, that's probably going to be walmart's best acquisition after a lot of acquisitions that were worse as they take on pack and save and other retailers in new zealand. who watch wolworth. former ceo is on walmart's board. walmart only wins by acquisitions. >> i happen to have a loyalty card in my purse right nowhere i do all my shopping back in austral australia. >> i'd like to dig more into what we just heard. this is called suspense. >> do we need suspense music? >> courtney and herb. herb to you particularly. what we've heard now twice and from yourself a bit is that

target's walmart sounds like 15 years ago. walmart is all over the world. target is not, but is going to be. is this going to be a big opportunity for tgt? >> you also have to look at something else. when i look back at the ration owe and over time, i'm looking at a better performance from target. it's a much more pleasant shopping environment. and i go in both stores. that's what gets me back to my night and day. internationally, that's been the story for how many years now? >> i don't know. how many years, herb? >> no, you tell me. let the analysts tell me. that has always been an opportunity for target. on other shores is different than here. >> how many years? >> five years. whether it's in british columbia shows that walmart doesn't have products stocked on the shelves saturday and sunday. to herb's point it's worst when you go to california or the

carolinas. and you take out inflation with walmart doing half business in food adjusted for inflation, walmart sales are neutral than negative. >> before we build suspense, we're going to save you for last. you've got to make it good for us. stacy, what would change your mind about target being your pick? what would move you to the walmart camp? >> i have to say that we know walmart's been reinvesting in price. and so far that hasn't really paid off in terms of the traffic. it was barely positive last quarter. i would need to see that change. in terms of target, i just like what they're doing. they're thinking out of the box. they're doing the teamups whether it's with nate berkus or sony. >> what say you? as we were saying before, we've got three picks for target. are you going to be the one that says no? >> yes, i am. and i'm relieved i'm not

agreeing with herb. i'm less relieved i'm not agreeing with bert and stacy. however, i am a walmart fan. i think walmart made some horrible mistakes three years ago. i think doing the project impact was really a bad idea. and they're correcting all of those. they're going back to what made walmart win the game in the past. everyday low price, drive the business with gross margin, drive your competitors into the sea. >> but is that going to bring the new customer in? isn't there a customer that exists that religiously shops there that will never go anywhere but walmart but they're not bringing in new customers. >> i don't agree with that. >> they're set in their ways. you have a customer, that's your customer. >> but if -- everybody is walmart's customer. price matters. everybody shots there. some people buy more of their stuff there, some people buy

less. >> he's correct on that. and again i get back to the shopping experience. isn't it target's to gain? walmart tried to go the target route. they failed. and as you said they turned themselves around. the stock's been a great performer. but as a consumer, which one do i want to go to ultimately? >> target's a higher end store. walmart's a lower end store. walmart's customer is a $30,000 a year customer. >> isn't it about 95% of the products the same? walmart and target. socks, bounty paper towels. i know they've got some special deals. but the two, it seems like the products seem to be the same, no? bert, you agree. >> and courtney, you have a point on that as well. >> i guess i do. i think there are certain things to what herb said earlier that walmart does well and certain things target does well. and they're not necessarily the same. so it's hard to say who wins. i think target is better with

the exclusive collections and better at apparel. that's an area walmart has always struggled in. i don't think they're ever going to chip away at target in a meaningful way to take that shopper away from target. a lot of those skews are similar. you can get the toothpaste at both places. and in that category, walmart wins every time. why would i pay more for it if i don't have to? >> no one wants to pay more if they don't have to. >> but look at cash flow for both companies. walmart's cash flow has been in struggle for a few years. walmart increases dividends by cutting costs. they can't cut your way to profitability. >> and since i'm the vanna white of this situation, i will say and the winner is target. >> well, one last comment on that. the only thing that's driving target's business is discounting and groceries. >> thank you all.

we're going to see you again on wednesday. on wednesday we're going higher end, no offense to either store. we're going to do this the fierce competitors as i double check the name of the series between nordstrom and saks. i'm sure that'll be a good one. >> thanks for watching, everybody. "closing bell" is coming up next. i always wait until the last minute. can i still ship a gift in time for christmas? yeah, sure you can. great. where's your gift? uh... whew. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. ship fedex express by december 22nd for christmas delivery.